Minutes 19th Oct 2000

London HAUC

Joint Secretaries:

Mr. Steve Barriff

Mr. Keith O'Brien

Senior Engineer

NRSWA Manager

Corporation of London

24seven Utilities Services Ltd

City Engineers Department

255 Broadway

PO Box 270, Guildhall

Bexleyheath

London EC2P 2EJ

Kent DA6 8ET

Tel: 020 7332 1572

Tel: 020 8298 8388

Fax: 020 7332 1578

Fax: 020 8298 8488

E-mail: steve.barriff@ms.corporation.gov.uk

E-mail: Keitho’brien@24sevennet.com

LONDON HAUC MEETING

Held at the Corporation of London Guildhall on the 19^th October 2000

Attendees:

B. Hetherington L.B. Bromley, Chairman

C. Nesbitt Cable & Wireless,

Peter Loft Thames Water, Joint Chairman

K. O’Brien 24seven, Secretary

D. Povey Level 3

R. Khanna L.B. Hammersmith & Fulham

S. Barriff Corporation of London, Joint Secretary

G. Jacobs British Telecom

R. Bird BT Observer

P. Heather TfL

J. Pitrola L.B. Barnet

B. Lucas L.B. Islington

J. Blewett Thus

Sonia Yarde ntl

Andrew Clark Westminster City Council

Martin Newton L.B. Croydon

Sgt. B. Chalmers Met Police

K. Dowling Transco

1

APOLOGIES

Apologies were received from A. Attaie.

ACTION

2

Notes of the meeting that took place on the 20^th July 2000 were accepted as a true record without amendment.

3

National Regional HAUC matters.

The Chairman updated the committee on the following working parties:

Inspections/ETON

The working Party have been discussing comments over the last three months and will be proposing a final draft to the HAUC chairman by the end of October.

It is then proposed to be in publication by the 1^st April 2001.

Peter Loft referred to the current 5 categories of Inspection being reduced to 2, and an Advisory Procedure for Improvement Notices.

ETON

The Chairman referred to the ETON newsletter 6 and the forthcoming seminar to be held in Coventry, and the fact that ETON should be in parallel with the Notices Code of Practise. Comments should be in by the end of November 2000 and should include comments on Section 74. Peter Loft mentioned the issue of Railtrack safety zones incorporated in the document, which to date has not been resolved. Keith Dowling highlighted the fact that Section 74 is optional for Highway Authorities and that they should make their intentions known to the Utilities via the Co-ordination meetings. Jim Blewett asked for the Highway Authorities view of extending the length of time holes are open due to third party damage in relation to Section 74 payments. The Chairman’s view was that a reasonable approach would be adopted.

Reinstatement

Now making progress. The Working Party has meetings arranged until the end of December 2000. A draft is to be produced for consultation early in the new year.

Safety at Streetworks

The new safety code is still with the DETR. Earliest publication is likely to be in April 2001.

Records Review

No progress to report. Document still with the DETR.

Training & Accreditation

Peter Loft referred to the need to review the current method of automatically issuing NRSWA acreditations to operatives. The Working Party are considering a re-assessment programme which will consist if multiple questions and an average passmark. There are also NRSWA City & Guilds administration courses run by the W.T.I and Babtie Group.

Reinstatement Liability

The Working Party have been discussing the issue of reinstatement liability in light of the Notts –v- BT case. The main topic of discussion was related to historical reinstatements that do not meet the current specification. The working Party felt that it was not in a position to put forward a single recommendation as it was for each organisation to deal with their own failed reinstatements.

Diversionary Works

The Chairman informed the committee that there is no progress from HAUC on this matter. He recommended that the respective organisations refer this to their senior Managers in view of the changes that will occur.

Section 74 Scheme/Lane Rental

The DETR are expected to go to consultation on the draft Regulations which will Cover the Sec 74 Scheme. A meeting is arranged for 16^th November to discuss issues which have arisen as a result of the consultation exercise on the Co-ordination Code of Practise.

4

Central London Partnership

The next meeting of the CLP is scheduled for 1^st November. Camden, Corporation of London, Islington and Westminster have all submitted their main routes. Lambeth and Southwark have still to submit. The launch is planned for the 1^st January 2001.

Dennis Povey suggested that the timescales may be unreasonable. Peter Loft asked if Utilities will receive advanced programmed of works. Barry Lucas stated that at this stage we will only receive an approval of the routes. Peter Heather from TfL enquired as to how they fit into the scheme. Barry Lucas agreed to send him details of the strategic roads. Keith Dowling enquired as to what publicity is being arranged by CLP/London First?. The Chairman suggested that meetings with Utilities should be arranged to discuss further publicity. The Highway Authorities to contact LJUG to discuss the way forward.

Highway Authorities

5

London HAUC matters.

Performance Review Working Party

Due to the amount of Working Parties currently sitting no further meetings have taken place. Peter Loft to arrange new date.

P Loft

Improvement Notices

The current Improvement Notices served by the London Borough of Newham are still under review. Peter Loft referred to the new Inspections Code of Practise which will address the Improvement Notice issue.

6

Metropolitan Police/Tfl issues

Met Police

Bob Chalmers informed the committee that there are now 5 areas with each local Met Police Division to line up with the Local Authorities. The Traffic Management section will be discussing their co-ordination approach within the next few weeks. Bob Chalmers has agreed to update Keith O’Brien.
The question of Utility reinstatement gangs carrying out permanent reinstatement after the traffic management has been removed is a concern to the Met Police. The Highway Authority view is that first time reinstatement should be carried out Whilst the traffic management is still in place. Furthermore discussions on Reinstatement should be include in all traffic management meetings to include Replacement of white/yellow lines etc.Bob Chalmers referred to a recent incident where a Utility carrying out excavations in The Highway damaged another Utilities plant. The affected Utility carried out the repair Under the notice of the Utility that caused the damage. The Utility that caused the Damage, having completed their own works, believed it to be the responsibility of the Utility carrying out repairs to their own plant to assume responsibility of the Excavation and permanently reinstate the hole. The affected Utility however, believed it to be the responsibility of the Utility carrying out the original excavation to reinstate.

This led to the excavation being left open with neither Utility affording ownership. After much discussion the general consensus was that the Utility that originally opened up the Highway should maintain responsibility until reinstatement. Roger Khanna suggested that should such an incident occur in the future it would be advisable for the police to inform the Highway Authority.

Transport for London.

Peter Heather from TfL informed the committee that after 3-4 months since Tfl was introduced co-ordination is working well. TfL Street Management looks after 550kms of road network which is contracted out to Boroughs and Agents.

A leaflet detailing the operations of TfL will be sent to Keith O’Brien for distribution.

Jim Blewett raised the issue of the RMS group that looks after the A13 for TfL.

RMS are asking Utilities to pay for occupancy of the Highway whilst carrying out statutory works. Peter Heather commented that one particular section of the A13 is protected, but in all cases NRSWA rules apply. If this practise continues, Utilities are to bring this to the attention of Peter.

7

London HAUC Constitution

Dennis Povey informed the committee that the Utility side wish to increase their Membership from 7 members to 11 to reflect the amount of Telecom/Cable companies Working in existence. The Telecom/Cable companies have now set up their own LJUG sub group Group to reflect their interest in local and regional matters. The Chairman asked if the increase of members would reflect the activities in London as London HAUC should only reflect those works carried out in London. London HAUC and regional HAUC’s he pointed out, exist to resolve problems. Reference was made to the current imbalance of the committee as TfL effectively increase the Highway Authority side to 8. Roger Khanna suggested that LJUG present a more structured view of the reasons for extending the members and present this to London HAUC for consideration. It was agreed that Bob Hetherington and Roger Khanna for the Highway Authorities And Peter Loft and Dennis Povey for the Utilities debate this issue and report back.

8

Coring

Keith Dowling referred to fail monitor recommended by some Highway Authorities for cores that have failed. His view, also shared by most Utilities, is that a reinstatement has either passed or failed. If they have failed then they should be re-excavated and reinstated. Roger Khanna stated that 96% of cores taken in his Borough fail and it would not therefore be in the best interest of the general public to re-excavate. The question was also raised as to who pays for cores in the existing carriageway and why are they necessary. Roger Khanna replied that this forms part of the investigatory works and furthermore some Utilities insist upon existing cores. The Chairmans view is that taking existing cores should be dealt with on an individual basis. Dennis Povey asked that when existing cores are taken the Highway Authority should record the details to avoid further coring in the future. Roger Khanna asked if Utilities when carrying out their own coring programmes could share the results with the Highway Authority. It was also pointed out that he new Code of Practise for Inspections makes reference to coring activities.

Health & Safety

Dennis Povey pointed out the risks of taking full-length cores. Apart from the physical extraction of type 1 material from the reinstatement, very few plant enquiries are being received from Utilities. Roger Khanna agreed that Highway Authorities need to be aware of Health and Safety issues when appointing contractors.

9

Local Agreements

Keith Dowling asked for Highway Authorities and Utilities to report to the Committee on all known local agreements. These should be presented to the Secretary by the end of December 2000 and considered at the next full meeting.

All

10

Matters Arising

Peter Loft reported that the use of soil stabilisers within Thames Water is progressing and they are monitoring the quality and continuity of supply.

The Chairman referred to the accounts list provided by Harry Pendleton a copy of which will be circulated.

Gary Jacobs informed the committee that he is awaiting a response as to whether Not it is BT police to advertise on BT Kiosks. The Chairman mentioned that Some Highway Authorities are taking action against this practise.

11

Any other Business

Peter Loft referred to previously requested information on temporary Traffic Orders and the fact that there has been no response from the Highway Authorities.

Gary Jacobs informed the committee that this will be his last meeting as he has gained promotion within the company, and introduced Roger Bird as his replacement. The Chairman thanked Gary for his contribution to the committee and wished him well in his new role.

12

Future Meetings.

18^th January 2001 Level 3

19^th April 2001 Corporation of London

19^th July 2001 Thus

18^th October 2001 Corporation of London

Joint Secretaries:	Mr. Steve Barriff	Mr. Keith O'Brien
	Senior Engineer	NRSWA Manager
	Corporation of London	24seven Utilities Services Ltd
	City Engineers Department	255 Broadway
	PO Box 270, Guildhall	Bexleyheath
	London EC2P 2EJ	Kent DA6 8ET
	Tel: 020 7332 1572	Tel: 020 8298 8388
	Fax: 020 7332 1578	Fax: 020 8298 8488
	E-mail: steve.barriff@ms.corporation.gov.uk	E-mail: Keitho’brien@24sevennet.com

LONDON HAUC MEETING
Held at the Corporation of London Guildhall on the 19^th October 2000

Attendees:
	B. Hetherington L.B. Bromley, Chairman C. Nesbitt Cable & Wireless, Peter Loft Thames Water, Joint Chairman K. O’Brien 24seven, Secretary D. Povey Level 3 R. Khanna L.B. Hammersmith & Fulham S. Barriff Corporation of London, Joint Secretary G. Jacobs British Telecom R. Bird BT Observer P. Heather TfL J. Pitrola L.B. Barnet B. Lucas L.B. Islington J. Blewett Thus Sonia Yarde ntl Andrew Clark Westminster City Council Martin Newton L.B. Croydon Sgt. B. Chalmers Met Police K. Dowling Transco
1	APOLOGIES
		Apologies were received from A. Attaie.	ACTION
2		Notes of the meeting that took place on the 20^th July 2000 were accepted as a true record without amendment.
3	National Regional HAUC matters.
	The Chairman updated the committee on the following working parties:
	Inspections/ETON
		The working Party have been discussing comments over the last three months and will be proposing a final draft to the HAUC chairman by the end of October. It is then proposed to be in publication by the 1^st April 2001. Peter Loft referred to the current 5 categories of Inspection being reduced to 2, and an Advisory Procedure for Improvement Notices.
	ETON
		The Chairman referred to the ETON newsletter 6 and the forthcoming seminar to be held in Coventry, and the fact that ETON should be in parallel with the Notices Code of Practise. Comments should be in by the end of November 2000 and should include comments on Section 74. Peter Loft mentioned the issue of Railtrack safety zones incorporated in the document, which to date has not been resolved. Keith Dowling highlighted the fact that Section 74 is optional for Highway Authorities and that they should make their intentions known to the Utilities via the Co-ordination meetings. Jim Blewett asked for the Highway Authorities view of extending the length of time holes are open due to third party damage in relation to Section 74 payments. The Chairman’s view was that a reasonable approach would be adopted.
	Reinstatement
		Now making progress. The Working Party has meetings arranged until the end of December 2000. A draft is to be produced for consultation early in the new year.
	Safety at Streetworks
		The new safety code is still with the DETR. Earliest publication is likely to be in April 2001.
	Records Review
		No progress to report. Document still with the DETR.
	Training & Accreditation
		Peter Loft referred to the need to review the current method of automatically issuing NRSWA acreditations to operatives. The Working Party are considering a re-assessment programme which will consist if multiple questions and an average passmark. There are also NRSWA City & Guilds administration courses run by the W.T.I and Babtie Group.
	Reinstatement Liability
		The Working Party have been discussing the issue of reinstatement liability in light of the Notts –v- BT case. The main topic of discussion was related to historical reinstatements that do not meet the current specification. The working Party felt that it was not in a position to put forward a single recommendation as it was for each organisation to deal with their own failed reinstatements.
	Diversionary Works
		The Chairman informed the committee that there is no progress from HAUC on this matter. He recommended that the respective organisations refer this to their senior Managers in view of the changes that will occur.
	Section 74 Scheme/Lane Rental
		The DETR are expected to go to consultation on the draft Regulations which will Cover the Sec 74 Scheme. A meeting is arranged for 16^th November to discuss issues which have arisen as a result of the consultation exercise on the Co-ordination Code of Practise.
4	Central London Partnership
		The next meeting of the CLP is scheduled for 1^st November. Camden, Corporation of London, Islington and Westminster have all submitted their main routes. Lambeth and Southwark have still to submit. The launch is planned for the 1^st January 2001. Dennis Povey suggested that the timescales may be unreasonable. Peter Loft asked if Utilities will receive advanced programmed of works. Barry Lucas stated that at this stage we will only receive an approval of the routes. Peter Heather from TfL enquired as to how they fit into the scheme. Barry Lucas agreed to send him details of the strategic roads. Keith Dowling enquired as to what publicity is being arranged by CLP/London First?. The Chairman suggested that meetings with Utilities should be arranged to discuss further publicity. The Highway Authorities to contact LJUG to discuss the way forward.	Highway Authorities
5	London HAUC matters.
	Performance Review Working Party
		Due to the amount of Working Parties currently sitting no further meetings have taken place. Peter Loft to arrange new date.	P Loft
	Improvement Notices
		The current Improvement Notices served by the London Borough of Newham are still under review. Peter Loft referred to the new Inspections Code of Practise which will address the Improvement Notice issue.
6	Metropolitan Police/Tfl issues
	Met Police
		Bob Chalmers informed the committee that there are now 5 areas with each local Met Police Division to line up with the Local Authorities. The Traffic Management section will be discussing their co-ordination approach within the next few weeks. Bob Chalmers has agreed to update Keith O’Brien. The question of Utility reinstatement gangs carrying out permanent reinstatement after the traffic management has been removed is a concern to the Met Police. The Highway Authority view is that first time reinstatement should be carried out Whilst the traffic management is still in place. Furthermore discussions on Reinstatement should be include in all traffic management meetings to include Replacement of white/yellow lines etc.Bob Chalmers referred to a recent incident where a Utility carrying out excavations in The Highway damaged another Utilities plant. The affected Utility carried out the repair Under the notice of the Utility that caused the damage. The Utility that caused the Damage, having completed their own works, believed it to be the responsibility of the Utility carrying out repairs to their own plant to assume responsibility of the Excavation and permanently reinstate the hole. The affected Utility however, believed it to be the responsibility of the Utility carrying out the original excavation to reinstate. This led to the excavation being left open with neither Utility affording ownership. After much discussion the general consensus was that the Utility that originally opened up the Highway should maintain responsibility until reinstatement. Roger Khanna suggested that should such an incident occur in the future it would be advisable for the police to inform the Highway Authority.
	Transport for London.
		Peter Heather from TfL informed the committee that after 3-4 months since Tfl was introduced co-ordination is working well. TfL Street Management looks after 550kms of road network which is contracted out to Boroughs and Agents. A leaflet detailing the operations of TfL will be sent to Keith O’Brien for distribution. Jim Blewett raised the issue of the RMS group that looks after the A13 for TfL. RMS are asking Utilities to pay for occupancy of the Highway whilst carrying out statutory works. Peter Heather commented that one particular section of the A13 is protected, but in all cases NRSWA rules apply. If this practise continues, Utilities are to bring this to the attention of Peter.
7	London HAUC Constitution
		Dennis Povey informed the committee that the Utility side wish to increase their Membership from 7 members to 11 to reflect the amount of Telecom/Cable companies Working in existence. The Telecom/Cable companies have now set up their own LJUG sub group Group to reflect their interest in local and regional matters. The Chairman asked if the increase of members would reflect the activities in London as London HAUC should only reflect those works carried out in London. London HAUC and regional HAUC’s he pointed out, exist to resolve problems. Reference was made to the current imbalance of the committee as TfL effectively increase the Highway Authority side to 8. Roger Khanna suggested that LJUG present a more structured view of the reasons for extending the members and present this to London HAUC for consideration. It was agreed that Bob Hetherington and Roger Khanna for the Highway Authorities And Peter Loft and Dennis Povey for the Utilities debate this issue and report back.
8	Coring
		Keith Dowling referred to fail monitor recommended by some Highway Authorities for cores that have failed. His view, also shared by most Utilities, is that a reinstatement has either passed or failed. If they have failed then they should be re-excavated and reinstated. Roger Khanna stated that 96% of cores taken in his Borough fail and it would not therefore be in the best interest of the general public to re-excavate. The question was also raised as to who pays for cores in the existing carriageway and why are they necessary. Roger Khanna replied that this forms part of the investigatory works and furthermore some Utilities insist upon existing cores. The Chairmans view is that taking existing cores should be dealt with on an individual basis. Dennis Povey asked that when existing cores are taken the Highway Authority should record the details to avoid further coring in the future. Roger Khanna asked if Utilities when carrying out their own coring programmes could share the results with the Highway Authority. It was also pointed out that he new Code of Practise for Inspections makes reference to coring activities.
	Health & Safety
		Dennis Povey pointed out the risks of taking full-length cores. Apart from the physical extraction of type 1 material from the reinstatement, very few plant enquiries are being received from Utilities. Roger Khanna agreed that Highway Authorities need to be aware of Health and Safety issues when appointing contractors.
9	Local Agreements
		Keith Dowling asked for Highway Authorities and Utilities to report to the Committee on all known local agreements. These should be presented to the Secretary by the end of December 2000 and considered at the next full meeting.	All
10	Matters Arising
		Peter Loft reported that the use of soil stabilisers within Thames Water is progressing and they are monitoring the quality and continuity of supply. The Chairman referred to the accounts list provided by Harry Pendleton a copy of which will be circulated. Gary Jacobs informed the committee that he is awaiting a response as to whether Not it is BT police to advertise on BT Kiosks. The Chairman mentioned that Some Highway Authorities are taking action against this practise.
11	Any other Business
		Peter Loft referred to previously requested information on temporary Traffic Orders and the fact that there has been no response from the Highway Authorities. Gary Jacobs informed the committee that this will be his last meeting as he has gained promotion within the company, and introduced Roger Bird as his replacement. The Chairman thanked Gary for his contribution to the committee and wished him well in his new role.
12	Future Meetings.
		18^th January 2001 Level 3 19^th April 2001 Corporation of London 19^th July 2001 Thus 18^th October 2001 Corporation of London